Paul Tripp: 1:20

Stephane, welcome to Courageous Conversations.

Stephane Charbonnier: 1:24

Thank you, Paul. Thanks for having me.

Paul Tripp: 1:26

You bet. So, you've spent years leading organizations and making high stakes decisions and shaping teams, and I'm curious, after you retired, what was it like to enter a room where you were just another face in the crowd, and how did that change how you understood yourself?

Stephane Charbonnier: 1:44

Everyone is different of course, and everybody, decides when they're ready, when they wanna retire and why? And I think it's important for me and maybe because it's my French background, I've always worked to live not the other way around. And so very early on, I was clear on when I wanted to retire because I knew this was part of it. This was a big chapter of my life, but this was not my entire life. So I've always known that if it was possible, of course when I turned 55, I would've loved to retire and this is what happened. So it certainly for me was not a decision I made by accident. It was a very planned decision two years in advance. And I worked with my last organization to make sure that we were planning together and anticipating what was gonna happen during my last 18 month with the organization to make sure the team was gonna be ready, that we prepare the potential successor, but it was a very easy decision for me when it happens, if that makes sense.

Paul Tripp: 2:57

It does. I'm curious, you said a couple of things. You had been preparing and there are a lot of people that think, oh, I'm wanna retire at 55, and then 55 arrives and they're like, oh no, I'm not ready. How did you prepare and then stick to the plan? As 55 got closer, how did you know, okay, I'm actually gonna do this thing.

Stephane Charbonnier: 3:18

For me it's back to the why you deciding to retire? Before I retire I spoke to a number of people and obviously some of my life mentors that have been supporting me throughout my career, and I've reached out to one of them and he said, Stephane, trust me, when you will announce you are retiring, you will have even more offers, job offers, opportunities than you had when you were working as a head of hr. And I was like, you are kidding me. This is not gonna happen. This is not gonna be possible. And he was right. So it's very tempting when you've announced your retirement, very tempting to say, you know what, I might take something else. Why? Because it flatterers your ego. Paul and it feels good. You're at a point where a chapter closes with an organization with your corporate life, yet more people wants more of you. And I've met so many executive that are at that point in their life, are ready to go back. For me, it was a little different because I had that time to again, think that through and reflect on the why I wanted to retire and no matter how much I was going to receive. For me, it was very clear that I was not gonna change my mind because I had made that decision in the first place, not by chance accident or because I was forced to do it. It was a very thoughtful process.

Paul Tripp: 4:56

How did you find yourself wrestling with the question, what now? What's next? And that freedom that staring you in the face.

Stephane Charbonnier: 5:03

In the process of preparing for that new chapter in my life, I've spoken to a number of people and one of them actually help me really think through what was important for me. And we talked about, those. Key areas where you will want to spend time in the future. And this is how the four Fs that I used now as an acronyms to remember what's important, came to life. So my four Fs are, it was really clear on spending more time with friends and family. My wife and I have five children. I have parents still that are alive in, good health. Thank God on the other side of the ocean. I wanted to spend more time with them. The second f was all about staying fit physically and mentally. For the past, 20 years. I woke up every day between five and five 30. To exercise and I was learning things. So in my next chapter I wanted that to remain. Of course this be different, but I wanted that part of my life to still be a priority. The third one was focusing your life on things that are fulfilling. And that notion of fulfillment obviously is very personal for me, was around, one of our, children has had since she was a, little girl juvenile arthritis. And I've been spending, the past 20 years raising money in awareness. For the Arthritis Foundation, I'm a board member of the New York chapter, so I wanted to spend, and dedicate more time as well helping that, that meant also doing some advisory work that also meant mentoring some junior and senior people. And the last f freedom. And that freedom meant for me things like traveling with my wife. I'm a big car enthusiast, so it meant, and it continued to means taking a car, go for a car ride, just enjoying life and having that freedom to be able to do that is just a wonderful feeling.

Paul Tripp: 7:15

So it's friends, family, fitness, and freedom. Those were the four F's that you chose to define friends and

Stephane Charbonnier: 7:23

family. Fitness, mentally and intellectually doing things that are fulfilling, so that notion of fulfillment and purpose. And the last one is freedom. And you have no idea how many people since I've shared that with, they were like. Oh my gosh. Can I just take them? Yeah. And I will add fun and I will add that and that. Everyone has to define for themselves what it means, the next chapter. If you have not thought about it. You certainly struggle to decide and define what's next, but define as well what's next for you. Yeah. What would your

Paul Tripp: 8:05

friends and family say if I were to call them up and say, how has Stephane changed since he retired? What would I hear?

Stephane Charbonnier: 8:13

Oh, that's a good question. You will hear. I be, believe it or not, I became more chill. So friends and family would likely say that friends and family will likely say, oh my gosh, she's traveling all the time. We never see him. Friends and family, I hope would say he's even more available to us. Like I told you I have my parents that are still alive and in a good shape. Since I've retired, I've done things with them that I've always wanted to do, but never took the time to do it. And the fact that obviously we're a continent away doesn't always help, but I took them last Thanksgiving. For a road trip in the us, the three of us from Vermont to New Orleans. We crossed 17 states. They don't speak English, but we had a wonderful experience together. So a created memories in that time. So I hope the friends and family will say that. I've certainly spending more time now with them.

Paul Tripp: 9:22

That's wonderful. I love to hear you put a smile right on my face. I can imagine the car ride was a lot of fun.

Stephane Charbonnier: 9:29

Definitely. Although it was a lot of together time to be honest. Yeah, well there's that to spend that time. Go from Vermont to Louisiana. Three in a car. There was a lot of togetherness.

Paul Tripp: 9:41

Maybe you were wishing for work,

Stephane Charbonnier: 9:44

I'm sure. Maybe. Yeah, they were.

Paul Tripp: 9:46

So your wife is still working. Yep. And I know that you've mentioned that you travel with her. Yep. What is it like when you see her working and there you are, enjoying the sites. Has there ever been a tinge of, oh man, if I could just be in that boardroom, has that come up for you at.

Stephane Charbonnier: 10:05

No, really. I've had couple of stages with my wife and the first one was I was so excited to do more things together that I would share some of the plans I wanted to do and she would say, listen, I'm not ready. And it took me, hopefully not too long to understand and respect that. And I'm like, okay, she's not ready. And again, it was a matter of preparing that in advance, et cetera. So now switch your mind to, you're gonna be as supportive. You're gonna enjoy the time you have together, but you're gonna be as supportive. As you can with her, whether it's listening to some of the things she wants to share, whether it's supporting her as well, when she needs you in terms of supporting the rest of the family, trying to, take on maybe more that we would've shared in the past. And then, we always said, there are places we wanna go together. So I, took certainly the opportunity of planning things was she was on business trips to say, Hey, I'm gonna, join you and I'll meet you there, or I know you have a business meeting to attend and that's okay. Of course, but I will come and join you later on so that we can spend time together so that you can also not only I will, join you in those fun moment together, but you can also make the most of it on a personal level as you've traveled there professionally.

Paul Tripp: 11:35

No matter how much I try to shake you off your answer, you're standing firm to the fact that you planned and you were ready and you were very purposeful. And so I'm sure there are a lot of people listening who probably think, well, of course he was the CHRO of L'Oreal, USA. I'm sure it was an easy decision for him to retire. And what people don't know. About are the radical choices probably that you made in your life to get where you are today? So can you share some of that just in terms of how did you decide 55 and how did put a plan in place?

Stephane Charbonnier: 12:09

If I may, I'll get to answer your question, but if I take a sort of a broader view, I could argue the other way around. Why would it be easy to retire when you're the CHR L'Oreal? It's a pretty good, it's a great company. Yeah, it's a good gig. It's a great job. It's a fabulous industry and the people that I've worked with were incredible, whether it was in the US or globally and in France. So I've really enjoyed my tenures there. But again, I think it goes back to the why. And for me and I'm sure you obviously know the parable of the the people who are after the the sample cathedral burned in the 17 hundreds, the architect comes and ask the people and, what are you doing in the first person say, I'm laying bricks because, it's to help feed my family. It goes to the second and the second says. What are you doing? And the second says that I'm building a wall. And he goes to the third one. And the third one say, I'm building a cathedral because this is to restore faith and hope in the people. And the reason why I'm sharing that is I've always seen myself as someone. With a cathedral builder in a way, which is, I'm gonna try to bring that contribution to the great companies I've worked for and I've had the chance to be part of, but for other, at one point to take over. And so for me, whether it was what American Express with PepsiCo, with craft, with, McDonald's it was always about. What am I here to do? One of my mentor always say to me, when you take a new role, this is the moment, Stephane, when you need to write your legacy. Not at the end, not when you're ready to leave and do something else. When you take a new job, write your legacy. What do you want to achieve? And so. A again, it was a very important moment for me to say. It was a time where at transformed the HR function. We changed the way the sort of organization, we we install a new HR system. We changed the organizational model. And this was the perfect time for me to hand that over and I had planned for it. And I knew that this was the moment and it was also time, when you feel like. You are done with the work you were supposed to do. It's hard to go back and say, oh, let me try to get into another challenge. I was six years in the role and it was time. And it also, one of the thing that was in my mind was always, I've seen so many executives, Paul, that either refuse to think about. Their succession refused to see. And from some that were highly regarded leaders, it was sad to see that some of them left too late. Some of them it was in their decision. Some of them, they were forced to retire and they were not happy. And so for me it was never something that was an issue in term of planning. And so that notion of getting ready to do something else, was always there that I planned for.

Paul Tripp: 15:39

You know your story about, I'm laying bricks, I'm building a wall, I'm creating a cathedral. Really speaks to how, and I really appreciate how when leaders come into companies, to think about what are you building here, a cathedral, and at what point do you turn that cathedral over to someone else because your purpose has been fulfilled which of course leads us to succession planning. And I'm wondering, I know you were purposeful, but I'm wondering what is a. Step people can take to think about succession planning, where it doesn't feel threatening, like I'm being replaced if they're not ready, but something that's purposeful and meaningful for leaders to do.

Stephane Charbonnier: 16:14

I've always certainly believed in a leaders when they take over a new role, part of their responsibility is to prepare their succession. Doesn't mean choose their successor. It's a very different as decision responsibility. And for me, when I prepared my succession, I certainly try to. Make sure that there were some internal or external options and after that it's a matter of. Skills that are available, level of readiness of the successor culture of the organization, strategic vision and where's the company going in the next years and what will be needed? And I've always tried to make sure they would be choices. Then the choice is not mine to make I've worked with great organization that were. Kind enough to ask me for my input and insight, and I've always, given that, but at the end of the day, I would always say to every leader that I've tried to help and onboard one of your, duty as an executive, as a leader, is to make sure that you're preparing your succession. Doesn't mean it's for tomorrow. Doesn't mean it's for two years from now. But you have to, this is a duty you have to the organization to prepare your succession. If I reflect on my own sort of journey, it was probably easier, at mid career and certainly very easy and very exhilarating at the end to work on preparing others to be ready. I don't know if. When I was early in my career I had that sort of thing, but it became obvious that one, very selfishly, if I wanted to go somewhere, I need to have somebody ready. And so it started with a self-interest in hey. If I want to go to the next job, I better have someone that's gonna be, ready to take my job. Not only somebody strong in my team, but somebody that I'm gonna develop to potentially be ready. Of course, the decision won't be mine, but be ready potentially to be picked.

Paul Tripp: 18:27

So, not to confuse the listening audience, but Stephanie replaced Stephan as the CHRO of L'Oreal, USA, and you and Stephanie had a year long. Turnover process by which she came in, yeah. And wasn't she a scientist by background was that right?

Stephane Charbonnier: 18:44

Exactly. She was, she had a business background. And again when the choice was made, it was between internal and external. The company, decided for internal and because she was not coming from hr we worked together and she joined the team. And work in creating something that, we had designed that was gonna happen. So I gave her that responsibility of creating the employee experience group reporting to me for a few months. That helped her, of course integrate within the HR organization, the HR leadership team. And at that time it was public that she was gonna replace me, but it gave her as well. But it may be a little bit less pressure. She had pressure, no doubt, because everybody knew she would, but at least for the first few month, she had something that she could own and put her fingerprint on, as well as working next to me on some of the the challenges. Then we had, three month where she was next to me and shadowing me. As the head of HR and then my last three months, it was the other way around. She was owning the function, making all of the decision, and I was in the background there to help if she needed me.

Paul Tripp: 20:02

No, I love that. And when I saw you both together, you did a beautiful job. I think she was new in the transition of holding space and so, I just wanna. Repeat that The first three months she reported to you, the second three months, you had a co-partnership and then the final three months you stepped into the background and let her lead and you really allowed her space and grace to grow.'cause it's a huge position.

Stephane Charbonnier: 20:26

It is a huge position, especially when you're not coming from hr. There was a lot of. Things that were fairly complex and although we had announced at that time a new organization model in hr. And a new operating model as well. This needed to be implemented. So I think for her, having that first part done and then, seeing and being part as well of that first design phase, and then she could take over some of the implementation phase that she, had to go through when she was fully in charge. So, but again, I, in that particular example, Paul, we were very fortunate to work for a company like L'Oreal. Yes. I've known so many other companies where you won't have the luxury of having nine month transition.

Paul Tripp: 21:16

Yeah.

Stephane Charbonnier: 21:17

And again, those nine slash 10 month transition were sequenced and the group was extremely supportive. In many other organization, it's not as long. I can also think where my potential successor could have said, listen, I don't need you, and I was ready for that. So I think while you're retiring, the clearer it is, the easier it is to let the ego, go and say, you know what? I'm here to serve the organization. My time is done. I've done what I had to do. My time is done.

Paul Tripp: 21:54

Where do you think you learned that mindset from, building a cathedral and saying, okay, I've done what, I'm here and now. Like, where did you learn that from?

Stephane Charbonnier: 22:03

I think I've learned it from a lot of people around me, from some of the mentors and it has always been in my mind that I'm here to complete things. My life is a number of chapters that I'm here to complete. And the feeling of what's fulfilling for me is like, okay, I've been here for a purpose and that purpose is done and now I'm gonna hand it over to the next generation and I'm gonna help them transition as successfully as I can because I think maybe that notion of trying to leave a legacy of something behind that is hopefully marked with the seal of integrity, humanity, and, moral compass. It has always been my intent. I don't know if I've always been successful, but to do that in a way that perpetuate, if you want the sort of history and building of the organization and its people.

Paul Tripp: 23:00

So why 55? Why was that an important number for you?

Stephane Charbonnier: 23:05

I could have picked another number. Why not 55? Life is short, life is long, could be long, but life is short and you want to be able to enter the next stage of life with a lot of energy, with hopefully, physical and mental capacity. And for me, 55. Is maybe the new 40 or the fifties is the new 40. And so I can still do a lot of things that I've been in my bucket at least. I can still be active. Retiring from corporate life doesn't mean doing nothing as I'm still pretty active in a number of fronts. I could have picked 60, I think 55. It was a certainly a number that maybe I dreamt about. And suddenly, as we built our life with my wife Mary Jo, it became a reality that suddenly was possible.

Paul Tripp: 23:59

So many people, I'm sure listening to this think, okay, it's the paycheck, it's the paycheck, it's the monthly or biweekly paycheck. I've gotta just earn a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. I'm wondering for you, when the first paycheck or the last paycheck didn't come in, and I understand from the conversation, you're not measuring life that way, but there's this reality of, oh, okay, now I'm in a different circumstance. How did you navigate that mentally?

Stephane Charbonnier: 24:27

It's that's an interesting question. I didn't even look. It's a matter of adapting your life to what's next. So I think again, back to my four Fs. What matters to me are those four Fs. So. Yes, I don't have a paycheck, I still do some advisory work, but by the way, all of the money that I make with that, I donate to the Arthritis Foundation, every single cent. So we was never about money. My wife and I agreed that I would retire at 55. It was also because. At one point, when, is it enough? When do you have enough? Yes, you can still get more money. I could have gotten more money. Yes, you can still get a bigger title. I didn't want that. And by the way, I would tell every single one from junior to more senior who cares about titles. You know what I mean? So for me, back to those four Fs, that's what I needed. Those four Fs, that's what matters to me, not the paycheck that I have, that I don't have at the end of the month.

Paul Tripp: 25:38

Oh. How are you filling this space meaningfully right now? What? What's really bringing you joy that you didn't see, like you'd mentioned before, opportunities come, like what didn't you see before that you're like, oh man, this is great now.

Stephane Charbonnier: 25:53

It's true that you're in charge of your own fun or you are boredom. It's like you have to decide. And I know people are getting through, sometime depression. So like, again, back to my four Fs, like I still exercise, pretty much every day. Just had a knee surgery a couple of weeks ago, but I'm back, this morning exercising to totally like I used to. And instead of having, 45 minutes like I used to before, now I may have an hour. I'm reading the news more. Just because I want it and I love it, as opposed to I have to I still have a lot of people that I'm still connected with, I'm still connected with them for the right reason. And I'm saying that because. And I'm sure you know that Paul, a lot of people are like, oh, can I speak to you? Can I get your wisdom on that? They don't really care about you. And the good news is now I don't care much about them either. And that's the fabulous news of having the freedom where you choose not only what you do and where you spend your time, but as importantly, you choose who are the people you wanna spend your time with. The others? They're gone. So for me it's also, someone who I really care about is going to reach out and say, Hey, can I bounce an idea from you? Sure. My daughter's gonna call me and say, I'd love to get your, I'm spanning that time before it would've maybe be more tactical or I'll get back to you. Is it urgent or now I'm spending that time so I'm, I'm deciding as well, what are the project that I want to be part of. People, again, reaching out a lot for consulting. I'm not interested in consulting. Coaching, I'm not interesting, but advising on things that I know could have impact on an organization, on the people, and I can share, but also learn that I will go and do.

Paul Tripp: 28:03

Wow. I remember when I met you a few years ago, we were standing up in that cafe I on the 36th floor, whatever floor it was, and I had said to you, you were getting ready to retire. And because I'd been through that process, I said, be kind to yourself. And you looked at me like. Okay. But I'm not sure you knew, because you can't know. Right. And so what is one thing you would tell people that are on the fence about retiring or are struggling with it? What's something you would tell them now on the other side?

Stephane Charbonnier: 28:33

First of all, I remember that conversation and now it resonates more obviously since I retired, that notion of be kind to yourself. And definitely I kept that in mind. I'm trying to be certainly kind to myself. As much as I can. I would tell them a few things. One, do not wait for the retirement date to be there to start. Obviously making your plan. Anticipate what you wanna do. Second, when you're gonna retire, take the first year to experiment. Don't be frustrated and say, I don't have it all figured out. This is a year of discovery. I've certainly discovered that, I wanted to do, I wanted to write articles. I wanted to, be a keynote speaker in a number of HR conference. There are things that I like that are things that I didn't like, like I didn't like the writing thing. I like the, keynote speaking. so take the opportunity to learn that first year and then the second year, what you've liked, what you're good at. Outside of now your corporate job or whatever you were doing. And where do you get your energy from? Where do you wanna spend your time? How does that align with happiness? I think, one of the one of the things certainly that is front and center in my life is obviously with friends and family is at the center, that notion of happiness. And I know I didn't answer your question when you asked it to me about radical choices. The radical choices I've made in my life. Was in support of happiness, whether it was my own happiness when I make the decision to move from Europe to come to the us and take a smaller job, take a big pay cut, and take a chance on something that I, that was very, different for me. When, I take a smaller job as well when I'm in Europe because I need to be there, from my daughter. And she needs to be in a place where she will receive the best medical support she can have for what she has. So, the third piece is really that happiness. Make sure that whatever you decide to do, you called it, be kind to yourself. I true. I call it the true happiness of what make you get out of bed every morning with a smile on your face.

Paul Tripp: 31:05

I love that. You know what I really appreciate about what you've said here today is the fact that stepping into this brings future opportunity that you can't see when you're in it, and to do it with purpose and to know that what you've created is maybe coming to an end or has come to an end and you leave with grace, and a plan to do so.

Stephane Charbonnier: 31:30

I wanted people to think about, wow, he's done it and and he's leaving now. And interestingly when I announced I was retiring, people were like, so what are you gonna do? Seriously? You're not retired? And I'm like no, I am. I'm not gonna do nothing. People were like, oh, are you going there? Are you going there? We've heard the, CHRO jobs open. Are you taking that? And I'm like, no, I'm really retiring.

Paul Tripp: 32:00

Wow. And you've done it.

Stephane Charbonnier: 32:02

Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Tripp: 32:04

I know. So what didn't I ask you that you want to say about retirement succession planning? Leaning into this process?

Stephane Charbonnier: 32:14

I think what I would reiterate is you really have to plan for it. Because again, one of my mentor always say when I started my career he brought me into his office and he said, Hey. I'm going tell you something. And it was a French guy. Great. He's still a good friend today. And he is been a great mentor for all of my career, and he said to me something at one point, which was in French, but I'm gonna translate of course, is. Hey kid, the bullet that's gonna hit you has already left the gun start running, and I'm like, I don't know, 20, 23, 24 maybe. And I'm like, what the, what is he saying? And I left his office. I was puzzle reflected on it, and the message that I got out was. I will always be anticipating what's gonna come and never that bullet will hit me because I will always be planning for what's next and I will as far as I can control, because there are many things that I cannot control, but that has always been also my piece of advice to many other people is offer yourself option. Internally, externally. Because even if it's external and you're not taking it, at least you know why you're staying in your own organization. And this is the piece of advice that I want to, again reiterate, don't wait until it's too late. Prepare your succession as if it was gonna happen tomorrow. Help grow some of the people work with the organization to either find something else, if you wanna stay with the organization for another ride or you are ready, prepare for that. But to prepare, you have to be clear on the why. Work on your why. My why was clear.

Paul Tripp: 34:24

I love the fact that I loved to just wrap it up right there. The bullet that's gonna hit you has already left the gun, so start preparing some options. That's good.

Stephane Charbonnier: 34:36

And I never knew, I've asked him since he, he didn't remember the conversation. I'm like, yeah, you had your fit and your on your desk and you called me kid. And I, I didn't know how to, and he was like, I don't remember.

Paul Tripp: 34:50

He changed your whole perspective from that? Yeah,

Stephane Charbonnier: 34:53

definitely. Definitely.

Paul Tripp: 34:55

Wow. Well, I hope you've changed some people's perspectives today, and thank you so much for taking the time to share your journey, your retirement journey. I appreciate it. Thank you

Stephane Charbonnier: 35:03

so much. It was a pleasure, Paul. Thanks for the discussion and if that if that story could help even one person that's gonna listen to that podcast I will be placed to have done that.

Paul Tripp: 35:15

Thank you. Thank you.

Stephane Charbonnier: 35:17

Thanks a lot.

35:18

As you heard from Stephane, retirement isn't an ending. It's a chance to design your next chapter with purpose. Too many leaders wait until the choice is made for them. Whether or not you started your career with intention, now is your opportunity to be intentional about what's next. Build your succession plan, define your why, and step boldly into the future. If you're a leader considering retirement, start the conversation with your team today. If you're approaching retirement yourself, block time this week to map out your next chapter. Share this episode with someone who needs to hear it and challenge them to start planning now. Remember, the legacy you leave isn't just in the work you've done. It's in how you pass it on and what you choose to create next. Until next time, stay curious, stay courageous, and keep having the conversations that move your life forward.